 
Message-ID: <8drqEc_00awYRV95Ig@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun,  5 Apr 1992 16:33:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Jon C. Slenk" 
Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
If-Type-Unsupported: alter
To: +dist+/afs/andrew/usr10/js9b/Public/camc.dl@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: yow

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Random things in response to Jesse's mail:


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from mail: 5-Apr-92 Fwd: Hope this finally gets.. 
=> camc.dl@andrew.cmu.ed (9095+0)}


\quotation{ Now, this struck me as sort of odd.  You seem to be considering 
the

}\quotation{whole thing as a matter of formal experimentation, a very 
systematic

}\quotation{approach to things.  My instinct is to say, fuck scientific 
protocol;

}\quotation{distribute tools for self-sufficiency as quickly as possible, and 
let the

}\quotation{users figure things out for themselves!

}\quotation{ 

}
I agree with the idea that we should try to get the tools out as quickly as 
possible. My brother has a book that discusses building houses without the use 
of "standard" construction techniques. The idea was that current methods are 
destructive and  generate a lot of waste, when one could use materials already 
available to construct economical and thus environmentally sound abodes. 
Admittedly, they aren't luxurious, but the basic idea can be improved upon. 
Unfortunately, I have no idea what the title of the book is, or who the 
authors are. It does serve to indicate what kind of tools are available, 
though - even if we can't get hardware into people's hands, we could start 
with information.


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from mail: 5-Apr-92 Fwd: Hope this finally gets.. 
=> camc.dl@andrew.cmu.ed (9095+0)}


\quotation{   And what is this about being part of a "globally competitive 
economy"? I

}\quotation{thought that was something worth *avoiding*!  Self-sufficiency is

}\quotation{attractive to me precisely because it would take away so much 
impetus to

}\quotation{compete, compete, compete... I see capitalism as part of the 
*problem*

}\quotation{we've been considering, and I thought that you were coming from 
that

}\quotation{direction as well.

}\quotation{ 

}
I understand your desire to avoid the rat race, however, I think it is 
important not to totally remove ourselves from the world. We must be sure to 
keep up to date with "outside" developments, so we can take advantage of any 
new and useful ideas. Not everything produced "outside" would be bad (in the 
sense of being produced in an unsound, unethical, or unecological manner).


Question: So what exactly are people envisoning for these new communities? It 
seems like Jesse is very free form - these communities could spring up in the 
middle of a city ghetto, or out in remote farm land. I guess I had the 
internal image of Brunner-esque (Shockwave Rider) groups, if only because they 
could avoid being associated with the problems of the "real world." Ideas?


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from mail: 5-Apr-92 Fwd: Hope this finally gets.. 
=> camc.dl@andrew.cmu.ed (9095+0)}


\quotation{> My point is this: If we want to see any results

}\quotation{>from these ideas, we must rely on ourselves to accomplish the 
first,

}\quotation{>and hardest, basic experiments.

}\quotation{ 

}\quotation{   Exactly.  Now, who is the "ourselves"?

}\quotation{ 

}
Those of us on the mailing list and... ?


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from mail: 5-Apr-92 Fwd: ditto... => 
camc.dl@andrew.cmu.ed (11689+0)}


\quotation{To

}\quotation{answer my own question from last time-- that's one thing that *I* 
would

}\quotation{personally want from a community: a lot of free time to dream in.

}
What would that take? Computer systems? Cars? Plastics? Where do we draw the 
line? Should we avoid being hooked up with the rest of the information systems 
of the world, for our own protection? I would really miss my computer set up, 
but perhaps it is necessary? Production will always have side effects. We have 
to figure out what they are and if they are acceptable.


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from mail: 5-Apr-92 Fwd: ditto... => 
camc.dl@andrew.cmu.ed (11689+0)}


\quotation{   Hmm, now there's a topic no one's taken on directly yet!  I 
wonder what

}\quotation{this thread might look like now if we'd begun with speculation 
about a

}\quotation{better educational system instead of a better political system...

}\quotation{   Hint: I'd love to see someone throw out some ideas!

} 


Information, knowledge and belief are where it all starts. A new political 
system will only get support if people *already* think that way. If they 
don't, it will never get any backing - witness the War on Drugs (personal 
peeve). Disseminating the knowledge that people can make decisions with is 
vital to getting people on our side. That is what Greenpeace and other 
environmenal groups try to do. If you look around enough, you can find the 
information (example: Diet for a Small Planet), but if you don't know enough 
to look or don't want to, you won't ever get involved. That is why it took me 
so long to realize that my life style wasn't as good as I was brought up 
(indoctrinated) to believe.


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from mail: 5-Apr-92 Fwd: ditto... => 
camc.dl@andrew.cmu.ed (11689+0)}


\quotation{>I've pretty much given up on that. I think people are too stupid, 
and

}\quotation{>that they will consume untill they burst, and that the corporate 
masters

}\quotation{>will do anything and kill anyone to preserve their power, and 
therefore

}\quotation{>I'm now working on community designs that are not intended to 
"save the

}\quotation{>world", but to survive it's self-destruction and/or it's 
transformation

}\quotation{>into corporate hive-states, or whatever scenarios ecomonic chaos 
brings

}\quotation{>us in the future. The cynicism of old age, perhaps.

}\quotation{ 

}\quotation{   I suppose I think somewhere between Jon's hopeful optimism and 
Bill's

}\quotation{apocalyptic outlook.  Hope for the best and avoid the worst.

}

Can we survive if the majority of the power structure is controled by people 
who would find us perhaps threatening? How many people would side with us? 
What percentage of the population? Would any of those on our side have any 
clout, or are we all bums :) ? Perhaps we could be stainless steel rats...


Basically, I envision a quiet revolution - we can go off and try to start our 
own communities, or perhaps we just adjust our way of living within the world 
(ie: we alter our diets, we consider what we buy and where we do buisness and 
who we vote for). Any attempt to stand up and shout, "Hey! Everyone wake up!!" 
is going to be met with a wall of indifference, at best. Then again, maybe I 
am pessimistic here.


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from mail: 5-Apr-92 Fwd: ditto... => 
camc.dl@andrew.cmu.ed (11689+0)}


\quotation{>Lets hope we're clever enough to make this work and keep plenty of 
time

}\quotation{>available for lovemaking, watching sunrises, and hard sweaty 
play.

}\quotation{ 

}\quotation{   *Yes*!  Again, that image really resonates for me.  And if it 
does (or

}\quotation{doesn't) for anyone else in here, please speak up!

} 


*Yes*!


If we start a community, will others follow our example? It is often the first 
group of pioneers that break the ice and get things really going, even if 
their first attempt isn't a great success. What matters is that people cared 
enough to try, which gives others something to emulate and build upon.


"Interact Or Perish!"  -Jesse.


Ta ta for now,

-Jon.

-----------------------------------------------------

Jon Slenk        js9b+@andrew.cmu.edu   EVERYTHING is

Carnegie Mellon  Pittsburgh PA          Disclaimed

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